HodlHodl, Debifi and Baltic Honeybadger with Max Keidun – Blockstream Talk #31

Welcome back to blockchain talk today We're speaking to Max K dun building off His experience with hoddle hoddle a Non-custodial trading and lending Platform and is one of the main Organizers of the Baltic Honeybadger Conference one of the big OG Bitcoin Conferences Max is getting ready to Launch his latest project deify like Hoddle hodle it supports non-custodial Bitcoin lending but this time with a More institutional Focus this could be Big for Bitcoin peer-to-peer lending Markets which have historically been Long on demand but kind of skinny on the Liquidity we talked about how the higher Cleaner yields in peer-to-peer markets Are starting to catch the eye of Mainstream institutional money why we Need to bring back bitcoin's honey Badger branding and how liquid and Lightning can support growth in Bitcoin Lending markets if you find the show Useful don't forget to like subscribe And Share Max thanks for joining us on the show Today hey thank you to having me JC it's A pleasure and an honor great maybe to Start off with we can start with a quick Introduction to yourself and to huddle Huddle and deify yes so my name is Max I'm a contributor of hodle hodle which Is a noncustodial peer-to-peer trading

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And Landing platform and also CEO of uh Deify which is our upcoming Project um should be launched this year November December which is a Non-custodial lending platform for uh For um institutional lenders uh we build Only on top of Bitcoin we're also part Of liquid Federation and also I'm I'm One of the organizers Of um the most OG conference Bitcoin Conference in the world which is Baltic Hy Badger which is happening Actually as we speak PE basically so Tomorrow we'll kick in the Ria Bitcoin Week and balti Hy bger is the main event Of this of this Festival very cool yeah I've never been but I've always wanted To go yeah you should come it's it's Like it's obviously I'm biased but uh It's it's the best event out there Hopefully quality wise and and all other Stuff well hold on hold on what about Plan B in Lugano uh yeah it's good is good but you Know different wi and uh yeah I I I I Have a huge respect for bitfinex Obviously and Lugano itself but uh yeah Just like you know the the Honeybadger Is just a legendary event yeah at least People say that so you no no I I that's What my impression is as well I feel Like all the really good Bitcoin Focus Conferences are kind of in Europe for Some reason there's not very many you

Know I'm of course out in Asia I'm in Taiwan and most of it out here is like Crypto web 3 and I don't think we have Any like dedicated Bitcoin conferences In Asia they really seem concentrated in Europe for some reason yeah Asia is um I Think there there's one conference Probably Happening uh in Bali in October uh they Are kicking in so it's going to be a First Conference and um there's Noster which Is like it's not about Bitcoin but it's Kind of um a lot of bit Corner going to Be there so Noster party I think or Noster event um somewhere in October and November somewhere maybe to in Hong Kong Or um and um then there's Also bushbush I think the the the events Happening in Australia I'm not sure it's Part of Asia but I don't want to offend Anyone but you know yeah like at least For Australian event I know that for Sure they it it has been um like Organized by hardcore Bitcoin or So uh yeah and there there's there's a Bunch of them I might not remember all Of them um but uh there actual events Are happening there but yeah mostly I Wouldn't say that Europe is leading in That sense so obviously we have Honeybadger we have also BTC Prague and Different more localized conferences Such as like insbrook event which is

German speaking but also I think English As well uh in London happening a lot of Different events but I think like in us There's there's like bunch of them now Like uh it start to grow up like in us There's like highly respectable bit bit Block boom um there's also tapc in Atlanta there's also Pacific Bitcoin by Onean and as obviously there's also Bitcoin Miami which is going to be a Bitcoin Nashville lightning suit in Nashville so there's a lot of events Happening all across the globe yeah That's very cool do I kind of feel like Bitcoin The Branding has lost a little Bit of the honey badger when I first got Into Bitcoin the honey badger was very Prominent it was on all the merch it was On the t-shirts and you don't see it as Much for some reason and I've actually Wondered what happened to that I Wondered why that has kind of you know Not as prominent as it used to be have You noticed that as well yeah maybe you Know we are like we are getting more and More people obviously the more people You have the less attention to details Uh you know they have a new they they Have a new Heroes they have a new like New things we have new memes memes Coming in and we still stick with Honeybadger because obviously it's our Like spiritual animal so we love it and And we put it everywhere but uh you know

It's just us and uh um maybe once per Year we just remind everyone uh that Bitcoin is actual honey bger of the Money exactly right you don't hear that Phrase as much you don't see it on T-shirts and stuff but I think it's a Great description of Bitcoin right it's Just you know I I saw in uh Chinese on Uh the pboc one of the senior officials At the pboc called a called Bitcoin a Cockroach that you can't Kill that's also a pretty good good Description to be honest like co- Roaches are are also pretty powerful Insects but yeah I like honey bger more Yeah me too yeah so getting back to the Topic at hand how do you differentiate Between hoddle hoddle and Dey is it the Same kind of general idea but a Different Market segmentation or what's The difference between the two in terms Of Market focus and function yeah so Like H hodle initially started uh as a Peer-to-peer trading platform so it was It was an we we tried to oppose this to Local Bitcoins and Paxville these two are non-existing Anymore if you follow the peer-to-peer Market so local Bitcoins uh doesn't Operate anymore I'm not sure what's Happening with Pax they at some point They stopped operations now I don't know What's happening I don't follow them so Uh we just wanted and all these

Platforms they were custodial and th Centralized so we we we we thought like It's it's not a good thing to do because Bitcoin obviously is is about you know Holding your keys having at least Certain some level of control over your Funds you know and being non-custodial Is one of the pillars and core Principles of of of Bitcoin so we decided to build the Huddle huddle and um yeah huddle hudle Is like um I would say huddle huddle is Mostly for like it's peer-to-peer it's Peer peer to you know plap to plap as we Say so it's retail uh it's basically Anyone can become buyer seller lender Borrower so that's the principle and uh Then in U 2021 we launched um The Landing platform Or 2020 I don't remember which is also Peer-to-peer like pure peer-to-peer Everyone in the world can um can just Borrow against their Bitcoin borrow Stable coins because we decided we'll go With stable coins you know you can Borrow liquid teaser on our platform and These are Also uh eventually these uh everything Uh the land at hotle hodle become a micr Landing platform you can borrow up to $25,000 not more uh and it's basically We we are trying to promote that and We're moving in direction that is Becoming micr lending stable coin only

Very very fast Anonymous um where like Bitcoin locked In collateral is basically your credit Score yeah as long as you have Collateral your lender doesn't care who You are like basically you have to you You have assets you prove that they are There and you can cover all your your Obligations um and obviously the core Principle of huddle huddle is anonymity You know we don't request we believe in Free market we have a lot of Traders who Actually Request um like some personal data Because they're either licensed Brokerage companies or something like That but you know we believe in free Market let the free market decide if you Don't like that someone requests from You any kind of personal information you Can always create your own offer which Is free now comparing to Deify the difference is that deify will Be uh for larger volume loans loans only So it's only Landing platform there There's no trading at least no Planned um large volume so you can will You will be borrow you will be able to Borrow from 25,000 so it's uh you cannot Borrow less than 25,000 we'll provide a Fiat loans and stable coin loans so we Are adding Fiat to the equation and um Lenders will be only institutions and we Will know the lenders so you cannot

Become lender as now when you go to Hotel hotle you don't need to like go Through any due diligence with us you Just go you you create a an account and You do that so with Deify we'll we'll know who are the who Are the lenders we'll do the due Diligence on them uh and but borrower Can become anyone like personal um legal Entity person whatever and obviously one Of the main difference like if we're if We're not touching the technical part You know it's it's built on M on top of Bitcoin multis right on H in h hle we Use two out of three in deify we're Going to use three out of Four uh there's a lot of small Differences but the main difference is That deify um not going to be anonymous Because obviously if you're are Borrowing from the bank even through Bitcoin bash platform the bank need to Do the kyc on you because they cannot Lend money without knowing their Customer so so that's one of the main Differences a part of we're talking About different volumes different uh Different type of uh clean and um of Course you know approach towards due Diligence okay understood yeah so that Was that's one of the questions I was Going to ask is how do you manage um the Balance between anonymity and Regulatory Obligations around fraud and money

Laundering and it sounds like you do That by splitting it out into two Different platforms yeah and um on on Deify uh again we as non-custodial Entity and as a technical provider we Are not obliged to do the kyc but Lenders on deify who are going to lend Money of course they are subject to do Kyc and we will provide them with the Tools they're going to collect the kyc Data on borrowers we're not going to see This data we don't want to touch that we Don't want to ha that obviously so it Will be streamed directly to them and Then again you can you will be able to Borrow I know that some of the uh cases Uh even with large volume loans uh are Still not subject uh for kyc like if you Borrow stable coins again Bitcoin in Some regions uh you can do it easily Anonymously so on deify there might be a Case when the borrower is legally able To provide you a stable coin loan uh Without going through any du diligence With you yes as long as you have Bitcoin Locked as collateral in asro and and Like it's provable obviously so yeah but Um yeah that's that these are just few Differences again if we were going to Talk about all the difference then Probably one hour is not enough for us To cover this yeah yeah no that's Interesting you one thing you mentioned Was the difference in the multisig

Schema what what's the rationale between That yeah so uh two out of three that we Use on uh in hotle hle is like small Loans up to 12 months uh you know easy To manage everything with uh three out Of four for Dei we are actually Expecting that we're going to provide up To Fiveyear uh loans so it's a longer time Period and we want to ensure extra layer Of security which is uh change the Consensus mechanism uh three out of four So there will will be a Ford key Distributed between um lender borrower Deify as a platform and Ford key will be Held by Ford key holder which is um like Ford key backup holder it's an Independent entity uh Bitcoin company Several Bitcoin companies actually which Will hold the Ford key in Cold Storage Uh they actually all of them will be Hold in Cold Storage but anyway so they Will hold the backup key and why we did That because Uh like we uh we don't know how lenders And borrowers access their upsc and Security you know there's always even if You're using cold storage for holding Your keys there's always a uh this thing Which is called five wrench five wrench Attack you know there's always a Physical Impact um and um we are we I'm not I'm Not going to every borrower and lender

In order to understand how they're They're holding their keys we're going To provide them with with all the tools We're going to provide them with Hardware wallet integration but again There's always some kind of scam Attempts so what we've done effectively With deb5 for large volume loans we Believe that um even if the borrower or Lender is a bad actor and he gets the The second key from from his contra body He still needs to get a third key from Either deify or from forth key holder And we know our security setup which we Kind of understand how to hold Keys Securely and safely and um the same Thing also applies to our for key holder Because we're doing the the security Audit on them as well so just to be sure That even if two keys are suddenly in Hands of one bad actor then still you Cannot move collateral and if we're Talking about collateral which Potentially can be worth like millions Or hundred of millions or tens of Millions obviously you want to be sure That everything is uh is pretty well Structured so that's the difference got It so these kind of peer-to-peer loans The yield on them tend to run like Fairly High have you found that that's Pulled in more interest from liquidity Providers like institutional kind of Players uh yeah because uh they uh with

With with deify like with with deify We're basically building institutional Peer-to-peer like again it's it's Peer-to-peer but for Institutions and um with deify they will Be able to actually uh lend money with Higher APR and they will get all the Interest payment to them they don't need To use like if you have if you're a bank And you for example and you have Liquidity and you want to go to bitcoin Landing mark Market most probably the Way to do that will be through Centralized entity like previously it Was like blockfi or Celsius these these INF famous projects and um you just give Money to them liquidity to them they Allocate that liquidity but they also Charge the interest for that so Obviously you don't receive full profits Now with deify you will be able to Directly Al flad your money to to the End customer and you will get all Interest payment but there's also one Interesting feature that we think or or I would say that we see now on our Landing platform sometimes even though It's peer-to-peer even though it's Anonymous we see that the rates on uh Land at hudle huddle sometimes Comparable or even lower in some cases Than those rates that people actually uh Provide on centralized lending platforms Or verified and um highly you know du

Deal lending platforms so it's uh it's Always a market you know and uh with With with with basically as we say or we Try to believe that it's true with land At hodle hodle you get um the the APR That is actually built up by the free Market you know people from one and Decide okay I want to borrow and I'm Happy to pay that kind of interest and People on the other end who are lending Money like okay I can provide that type Of um that type of loan with that type Of LTV for that period and I'm happy With that interest so it's basically Free market deciding what's the proper Rate same actually applies to the price Of Bitcoin because uh some people There's a theory that uh the real price For Bitcoin is basically provided by Anonymous peer-to-peer Trading platform Because again it's a free market you Know there's there's buyers there's Sellers and they they find their their Deal somewhere in between and because Bitcoin is supposed to be privacy Oriented because it's supposed to be uh Anonymous because of that some people Expressed opinion that uh like platforms Like bisque or huddle hodle they do Provide the the most accurate rate for Real Bitcoin as they say that people are Happy to pay because they some people Tend to say that K that Bitcoin that is Bought on kyc Plat kyc platform is not a

Real Bitcoin because it's lacked Properties of an anonymity but yeah it's Just a theory so what kind of Institutional kind of players do you see Being attracted I mean who are the Liquidity providers is it high Crypt net Worth people family offices do you see Like more traditional mainstream Institutional investors taking part in This as well yeah we we're actually the The idea of Dey came to us when we've Been approached by one um Asian Bank Commercial Bank so they they they knew The land at hot hoto platform and at Some point they just you know uh we Would like to to have that kind of Solution but just you know WID labeled And suitable for institutions and we we Thought like for one month we did our Brainstorming and thought okay we just Want to Separate um large volume loans provided By licensed entities and small volume Loans provided by retail investors we Want to separate and we decided we need To build deify for that so the idea for Deify is that um and we see that there's A huge demand from traditional financial Institutions like Banks hedge funds uh Family offices as well we've been Approached by several family offices but Also um some comp companies that already Are in Bitcoin space they are actually Planning to set up a separate credit

Vehicle or credit Fund in order to start A floating liquidity on deify so there Are several options and obviously our Our main idea and dream about deify is That we want to unboard commercial Banks And different types of banks um what why Not even maybe central banks to to the Bitcoin standard you know so they Understand that okay it's a Non-custodial setup first it's Bitcoin Only the second thing and it's like Highly programmable transparent and you Can um give loans remotely you don't Need to actually be presented in certain Region you can you know you can expand Your your regions okay so so you're one Of the main organizers of the Baltic Honeybadger conference how did how did It start it was actually a crazy idea we We um uh back in the days when we Started hotle hudle we didn't have any Funds to to do the proper marketing and Uh like we decided that the best Strategy would be is like obviously put A lot of effort towards Education and uh we decided like well Let's let's do couple of meetups in Ria lva and see how people uh like going To attend it whether it's it's it's and It's actually like we did couple of them Like two of them uh and uh we we didn't Spend any money because we found a Co-working space Who provided the free Free space for us and it was like high

There was High attendance like Everything was completely fully like Loaded with People and then at some point we decided Like well um maybe we should find a Sponsor and try to to do the conference In order to make it a marketing event to Promote hotel hotle brand you know Because we we we didn't launch Hotel Hotle before Baltic honey badger we Actually launch it six months after uh The Baltic honey badger so honey badger Was initially our like marketing trick In order to you know G gain some Recognition before the launch of of Hotle huddle and the old the old Trojan Horse Yeah it's it's basically become and it's Surprisingly it's become its own thing So Baltic County Badger is like it's its Own brand now separated a different Entity and all that stuff and um yeah we Found a sponsor actually the sponsor was Um uh the same entity who owned this Co-working space and uh we kind of uh You know invited we started by inviting Like uh some of the big names at that Point we were lucky that some of them uh Were were based here in Ria so what what Was the year what was the kind of date Of that 2017 it was like yeah it was very Like it like it's it's uh it's six years But it feels like it's it's been a

Century so and and you know we we we Kind of uh we kind of decided to do that We found a sponsor but but also one of The one of the reasons behind doing the Honeybadger was that we were sick and Tired of all these blockchain Conferences it was it was beginning of Ico craze if you remember this yes I do Indeed yeah and you know you go to the Conference um whenever you go to the Conference you know people are selling You some like weird coins you know Here's like we're launching Ico for you Know you know selling cars we go we are Going to tokenize the Retro cars and There there will be a millions of people Owning like one token and this will be One Ferrari Jesus coin and denta Coin And yeah yeah it was it was so crazy it Was like um I don't know it was crazy it Was like circus like Global circus of of Of jerks I would say but anyway and uh Yeah and we we we decided well it You know we we are we're just going to Do uh um you know we we're just going to Do our own Bitcoin only conference we Invited Adam actually we invited couple Of people I remember that some of them Were writing to our um Ria one of our Ria speakers and like is it safe to go To laia you know people weren't aware Like you know it's easn Europe uh and uh Um and like is it safe should we go These guys like Baltic honey bger what

Do you know about it and like one of one Of the speakers were actually pretty Cheering for us and helping and Surprisingly we Also there was there was like some some Issues at the beginning but then uh We've approached Andreas Antonoplos and he said yes and when we Announced Andreas it was like bam and uh All rest of the speakers wanted to join And uh I'm really thankful for Andreas Because it's like I would say 50% of Honeybadger success it's because of Andreas he he agreed he he he went to Ria and uh he actually did a he actually Did a great speech at that conference It's available online it was crazy you Know it was so so powerful speech and The first honey badger it was like I Would say it was like Around 200 people maybe even less so It's a small crowd but and it was like 10 speakers I think and like uh they Were rolling for both days you know we Decide let's do two days and there was If if you compare the the list of the Speakers the agenda the Talks uh you will see that it was like Just it could be just be done in one day But somehow we decided let's do two days And um it was huge success next year we Did a bigger event space we we we we Invited more speakers 300 people came in Next year we did the same uh like 500

People came in and um then there was a CO and uh but then we restarted last Year it was 700 people and this year Hopefully will be even more and this Year we have three Stages more than 100 speakers you know Like whole week of different events And uh it's crazy it's it's it's has it Has grown up we we never tried to be the Biggest conference in the world because It's it's like you need to understand That the conference for us is not the Main activity you know we we we still Have uh developments Bitcoin product Developments like hdle huddle and and Deify but we like to do this it's it's It's our thank you to amazing Bitcoin Community we still believe that it's Amazing community and um yeah it's That's that's the short story of honey Bger oh that's very cool yeah and Andreas has a you know in the early days I I learned a lot from him about about Bitcoin he's one of the guys that I Think really helped explain things to me And um you know sometimes you see people Say hey when is somebody when is Sailor Gonna go on Joe Rogan and talk about Bitcoin people forget that Andreas was On Joe Rogan twice right he was on there In like 2014 I think that was one of the First times I heard about Bitcoin and Then again in 2015 Um and that he has some great content

And some really really good material out There that's probably still really great If you go back and look at it I'm sure Um I I had a similar experience on the Conference side when I was working for For mccy is that uh at the same time 2017 you know all the big banks are Competitors JP Morgan they were doing Blockchain but not Bitcoin and I wanted To do a Bitcoin conference you know at The bank and I had the same kind of Thing I just started reaching out to People I pinged Samson you know I didn't Know him back then I just pinged Samson And said hey could you come over and Present at our you know for the bank We're going to do a closed door thing For institutional clients in Hong Kong And he's like I can't make it but I've Got this guy Adam back would you be well That'd be great and then Adam came and We had people from bit Fury and we had The CEO of bit fex JL and just you know And then at that time I think a lot of These investors didn't know really like How influential the people that they Were you know that they were meeting With and what a great opportunity it was So that's it's really cool kind of back In that time when you can get access to A lot of really influential people like That um it's kind of like the the Golden Age of those smaller conferences when You could do stuff like that it's very

Cool yeah but it's also you know it's It's I think it's a part of community Because a lot of people they just afraid To you know to reach out and uh we've Been we've been lucky but we also see That it's it's okay you know you can Reach out to basically anyone and you Can ask um anyone you know you want to Come And most probably they're going to come You know to to your event uh back in the Days it was bit more easier because now It's like there's a lot of different Events and people get picky and you know They they they try to choose the best One you know some some people say hey I'm not going to travel you know I'm Going to stick with my region and all That stuff okay that's understandable But there's a lot of high quality Speakers now as well you know there's More of them than than it was back in The days yeah that's true as well so uh Baltic Honeybadger is next week and I Think this episode is going to be Dropped it's actually this week this Week already so maybe we can front run It a little bit maybe you can give us uh You know knowing that we won't release This until after it maybe you can give Us a bit of a scoop on on what big Announcements you have planned for the Conference we we actually we avoid um Like you know marketing stuff

Announcements and all that stuff I don't Know what are other teams are going to Do we allow this to do but only in scope Of your presentation you know Presentation should be educational or Technical and then in the end you can Say by the way you know this product That I have just described to you we're Going to use an hour like service but I Can say for hodle hodle that we're going To Do announcement on our end like uh first Of all we're in the process of Completely redesigning hudle hodle in Terms of user inter interfaces and your User experience we started this process Back um last year in October released first parts of uh Updated version of H hotle it was it was Actually a huge success uh we saw some Significant growth volumes uh because People like suddenly you know Peer-to-peer becoming easier for for any Type of person whether it's very Sophisticated or New um so we are we are going to Continue this path and we're going to Announce that we're releasing a trading Functionality new improved trading Functionality in October another thing Which is a crucial we're going to Announce the release of uh Landing API So you will be able to use our lending API integrate our

Lending uh tag into your platform Services or you can you can just build Your own on top of that but these are an Announcement for the future I would say It's not like we're announcing and it's Already there and um I think the main Announcement is um is an answer on the Most um often asked and mostly hated by Me question when lightning you know uh Because we received this question for I Think the last three years um doing the Hle hudle so um I'm GNA answer that Question because in uh Q1 in the beginning of next year we're Going to launch peer-to-peer lightning Trades uh on huddle huddle and these Lightning trades will be fully Non-custodial They will be anonymous and they will be Global so you will be able to do single Trades do DCA and you will be able to do this in Purtier Manner and this is something Unique we're building and actually we've Been building this for or I would Say Well since we Lounge hle hodle we've Basically been building our lightning Functionality we didn't know about that But then we realized that hey it's Everything is is there you know we we Just need to to to take the pieces of And of the puzzle and and make them you Know work together so this is what we're Doing at the moment so the big

Announcement is that lightning is coming To peer-to-peer world and to hudle hodle Uh most probably q1 2020 4 not most Probably but definitely q1 2024 that's The big announcement a hard a hard Deadline I like It yeah if you don't put a hard deadline You know that the product won't be Delivered no exactly so I want to ask You some questions about the liquid Integration but before I forget I also Want to ask you about the API so the API Will be for huddle hoddle or for deify Because I imagine that's a you know for Institutional investors they they want To have the API access right so we are Going to do the API both for L and both For de for deify So uh for land we we released first we Released the platform and then we Started building the API uh for deify we're simultaneously Releasing the platform and shortly after That we're we're releasing API so deify Most probably will will kick off with API already available for institutional Client that should be a massive deal for Liquidity on the platform right as soon As you can get people to use yeah yeah That's very cool On on Lightning so you said that people Have been asking for this integration For you know years and you hate this Question do you think this is do people

Really want this or is this just Bitcoiners being you know trying to Promote Bitcoin and liquid because from My perspective it seems like something Like liquid would be more appropriate For this kind of situation because you Can do bigger size so what what are your Thoughts on that because they always People say that they want to have Lightning on exchanges as well and bit Finex you know we've had it for a number Of years already you see other starting To talk about adopting it but it just Seems to make more sense to use Liquid Because you get the same kind of you Know you can non-custodial you can move It faster more confidential all of that Um but lightning is just smaller size so I I I don't really see how that makes Sense for exchanges and and kind of for Your platform as well yeah peer you know The difference between exchanges and Peer-to-peer uh trading platforms is That actually uh like with peer-to-peer Trading platforms there are high frequen High amount of smaller trades you know People want to trade Uh different first of all different Regions you know hle hodle is built for Emerging markets and you cannot go to Like Latin America or Africa or Southeast Asia and say hey guys you know When when there's mle it's full and we Saw the spike this year right and uh you

Cannot say hey this there's amazing new Technology for unbanked people um like You and you can just uh you know Buy buy $50 worth of bitcoin and but you know You need to pay a $20 fee for that you Know it's it's just crazy so lightning Works in that sense uh first of all for Emerging market I think lightning M Makes a very much sense that's the first Thing the second thing is That I think that what we are building Is it's actually nonexisting at the Moment and I think this might change the Market I hope it will change change the Market and and will provide people an Opportunity easily by a lot of lightning Bitcoin I mean like do a lot of Different trades and easily at any Certain point of Time so I think the ease of use also is Is an important thing and uh I didn't Say we're not going to integrate liquid So liquid is on the way where we're Going to integrate it in 2024 uh but as you mentioned liquid is For higher trades and liquid is for high Amounts uh of course you can transact Smaller smaller trades but um you know With with with that kind of low fee uh That there is now on a Mempo uh you can you can do everything On chain you know you don't need liquid You don't need lightning you know it's Just cheap transaction you can do with

Everything uh but we want to have both Of them and of course we're going to do That as well so both of them are amazing Different use cases yes and um but we Are building the core uh the core for Lightning trades in such ways that we Can add liquid trades later very easy on Top of that So like liquid is on the way as well but I'm not going to announce that yet or You have a dead line um okay that's good So hle hle has been a liquid Federation Member since you know like 2020 so how Does that partnership fit in with your Business at the moment at some point we Were actually very actively one of the Main use cases for liquid Theer and uh I'm I'm a big fan of liquid Ther to be honest um because people were Borrowing liquid theer on our Landing Platform so that's that's amazing that That's that was amazing because if you Remember um at some point ethereum fees Were very high and if if you if you Tried to borrow teeser on top of Ethereum you would you would be paying a Lot and a lot of people in that moment They actually switched to liquid and They understood the beauty of the liquid So for us being liquid Federation member Is uh not only having access to all the Tools that that we have have uh but also We we decided it's it's a perfect fit Since we have uh liquid teser we promote

Liquid and uh we like how it works uh You know it it it doesn't break the Promise you know everything as as Described everything works as described So yeah for us liquid is um is an Amazing tool and we try to promote with Our Landing platform of course uh our Involvement will be bigger and better uh When we're going to integrate liquid Directly to our products but this is Coming yeah it's interesting how the Fees on ethereum drove a push for tether Onto different blockchains so Tron Became really big around that time as Well and you you still see these tweets Today about how Tron is very active in Defi a number one blockchain protocol For Defi and I kind of suspect that it's Pretty much all tether so which is kind Of funny um but yeah liquid is super Super cheap for for for tether and super Fast you know it settles in a minute so It's it's just amazing you know I I Always think that when I send um tether From my um my green wallet to my Bitfinex account it settles in like one Minute which is kind of always blows me Away yeah it's true it's true I can I Can confirm that but also yeah I was Also blown away not only but liquid but Uh I was late to the to the lightning Party you know I I didn't I I hadn't uh Like lightning sets uh for a very long Time and then first time I I I asked one

Of my friends you know can you just send Me like five5 worth of of of lightning And he just add it and then like it's Like instantly I I I I I do know how Liquid works and I received liquid Transactions and I saw that speed but Also for lightning it was pretty pretty Amazing you know no that's very cool Yeah both are very cool um hdle hdle Supports over a 100 currencies for Trading um do you plans to extend that To to deify as well will it be a similar Kind of offering with deify again it's Uh we we support 100 currencies at Trading part and deify is purely Landing Platform but with deify one of our goals Is to become the major Global liquidity Aggregator for Bitcoin uh for Bitcoin Lenders and borrowers so uh of of course We want to have person I don't know from Brazil being able to borrow against his Bitcoin or her Bitcoin uh in Brazil real or person in Us obviously this will be a one of the First Fiat currencies will be added but Yeah you know borrowing USD or person From Australia borrowing in Australian Dollars or yens and Yuans and Euro Whatever so we want to expand this Offering we want eventually we want that Uh our goal is that people from across The globe they don't need to think about Okay I I can borrow but I have this Currency risk and all that stuff

So um we believe yeah that uh that's one Of the goals so person like at the Moment uh I'll be honest borrowing Against your Bitcoin is non-existent in In Mo in most of the part of the world You know it's it's basically everything Is dollar denominated right there's There's a pretty robust and good Market In us but outside of us it's it's almost Non-existent you know you have Canada Some of the stuff you have GBP but like You go to Euro area and you see huge Problems right you go to Japan you go To any proper region or any Emerging Market you know you you see that it's Non-existent this is what we want to Build we want to build a a platform Where you can borrow in any currency you Prefer or at least in most you know Usable currencies in the world so do you Think your focus in terms of markets is More Emerging Markets than develop Markets I think you mentioned that Before for H hle definitely Emerging Markets is number one and we saw the Good growth there we're actually growing In this market we are more focused on This Market of course traditional Markets also operate on hot hot for Deify I wouldn't distinguish Um this and that because also there's a Difference you know in Emerging Markets I I think people need to the the more Interest for people is to acquire

Bitcoin in developed countries the more Interest is uh how to work further with Uh with Bitcoin you know uh okay because In develop countries there's so many Ways how you can acquire Bitcoin and most of the people from this Region they already have Bitcoin and They and they now like they they're Facing the Dilemma what should I do with That you know I want to keep it as Asset uh but you know I have some Expenses to cover I I want to buy other Assets maybe or I want to buy more Bitcoin you know how how should I Structure it and then there's Dey for That and also land at hot H for that Think that there's a difference in use Case for Bitcoin and emerging in kind of Develop markets where in develop markets It's more a speculative asset where People are you know betting on number Goes up and maybe a little bit on an Inflation hedge whereas in Emerging Markets it's more like a survival raft If your if your currency is you know not Very stable I think that's uh for Developed markets the main case is Probably you know people in develop in Developed markets they do understand the Value of the freedom so for them it's Also um but most most of the use cases Basically hedging yourself from Inflation from you know money Printing And all that stuff so it's I wouldn't

Say it's uh it's of course it's Speculative asset mostly in in in all Markets you know everyone says we are in In it for attack but everyone is like Smiling and happy when Bitcoin hits like 600 600 per per one coin you know nobody Cries about that everyone is like okay We're in the we're in for Tech but also Having some nice profits is also a good Thing good feature you know side effect But uh I think for emerging markets is Mostly the the question of uh survival You know and uh you know like optimizing Your expenses if you have them and uh You know surviving certain Certain uh things in your life as for Developed countries is um it's more like I would say hedge hedging tools Economical hedging Tools um and uh because we already have Like in developed markets so many Options yeah people are happy and people Are uh not happy people are lucky to Have blessed I would say comparing to to Some Emerging Markets blessed to have so Many options so many Tools and um yeah but everything based On top of Fiat so obviously Bitcoin is Is the one of the ways how to hedge the Risk of Fiat Itself as for emerging markets you know They have different problems and um Sometimes main main property for them is Not about you know hedging the inflation

It's about you know having uh an asset That you can move across the border Capital controls yeah or having an asset Which you own purely in government Cannot come and take it take it from you So that's there's there's different use Cases definitely where would you point People if you're interested in in Learning more about H huddle hudle or Deify where should people go to learn More about that just go to hudle Hudle.com every every information all The information is there basically all The guides videos whatever you you want To do uh and uh deify well website dei. Comom briefly you get you can get Familiarized with that you can listen Couple of podcast with me and uh maybe Watch a video on YouTube but uh for Deify we are going to release more and More information as soon as product will Be launched but so far I think we did a Good job with our one pager uh at the at Our website so you can just go there Check it out and uh sign up to get an Early access okay great now maybe last Question what what gets you most excited Kind of in the next 12 or 18 months in In Bitcoin or with hudle huddler deui What are you most pumped up about I I'm Pumped up about our products actually so About deify Lounge obviously because uh We have some interesting credit tools Coming on top of deify you know the the

Just just an opportunity to borrow Against your Bitcoin is not the end game For us we have other other features and Other products on top of deify which Will be gradually released during the Next year and some of them are Non-existing in Bitcoin Market at the Moment as for hotle Huddle uh well I'm pumped about Lightning release of course and further Release of liquid and we're also Planning to build a mobile app for Huddle huddle and this is very exciting For me as well that's very cool well Max Will definitely have to have you back on When you get some of these new products And features to Market so look forward To talking to you again thank you very Much thank you very much was a pleasure And uh Cheers

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