Developing BTC Commerce with Layer-2s and Vulpem Ventures ft Marco Argentieri – Blockstream Talk #37

Welcome back to blockstream talk today We're speaking with longtime liquid Contributor and founder of vulpen Ventures Marco argentieri Marco is a Prolific software engineer and Entrepreneur and the guy behind a number Of liquid tools and projects including Marina wallet Tex Fuji money and liquid Taxi in this episode we touched on the Importance of covenants AKA smart Contracts and discussed various layer 2 Solutions like liquid lightning and Arc We also discussed what the future holds For Bitcoin and liquid and how the the Current bitcoin Narrative of digital Gold could evolve going forward if you Found the conversation useful don't Forget to like subscribe and Share hi Marco welcome to the podcast Thank you thank you for having me maybe To start off with can you give us a bit Of a background let us know how you got Into computer science and how you got Into Bitcoin sure sure thing I was in High school and I was um doing in high School and working and also I already Started programming in my spare time I Discover Bitcoin mostly because it was Easy for me to buy uh video games on Steam at the time was a seting Bitcoin And using the Russian store I could be Able to pay much much less so this was My intro to bitcoin I didn't care about Uh Bitcoin as or you know money in

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General but was a very geek or nerdish Thing to to do and was even helping me To to save some money so this has been My intro but then I said okay let wait a Second why I'm not using PayPal why I'm Not using any other you know fintech Company at the time you know 10 years Ago so I said hm very very interesting So I said okay I want to work on this And let me let me explore a little bit I Started you know as a freelance I was Tweaking Bitcoin core for other at the Time altcoin and I'm talking about 20133 14 uh but then you know like I really Get into the Bitcoin part monetary part And then in 2017 uh after working many Other startup or companies around the World I decided to cound wen Ventures And wam is basically a Bitcoin company H So I'm very happy to work uh full-time On this oh that's great since joining Bitfinex Securities I've noticed that There's a really strong Bitcoin Community in in Italy of course you know Paulo are our CEO and CTO is is Italian But there's a there's a lot of other Italian kind of on the developer side And then also on the investment side I Didn't realize that before but it seems Like Italy especially has a really Strong Bitcoin uh Community 100% 100% I Think like Bitcoin Italia which is 5,000 Members I think it's very remarkable Number of Bitcoin only um follower uh so

I think that's a that's a really great Thing and to be honest I think now Austin maybe is the capital of Bitcoin They say uh but in 201617 Milan was was The capital of Bitcoin every month there Was a Meetup uh there was people like Andrew postra and um Andreas antonoplos Coming to Milan and Peter Todd was Living there for for a while and of Course Jak jako Zuko has been like the Leader uh in this and and trying to you Know to bring this initiative forward so Yeah I'm very very happy and very Surprised uh when I go when I travel Around uh leaving around and leaving Italy and see how big the community is There yeah that's very cool so you Touched on briefly uh vulpa inventure And and um the projects that you guys Are working on you're working on a bunch Of different layer two projects on Liquid and on Lightning can you talk a Little bit more in detail about what You're trying to achieve um for with Vulpin Ventures sure sure I think like Before getting into what we do I think Like the the goal for us at the Beginning was um okay we We There is Bitcoin and Bitcoin definitely um you Know win the saving uh bottle maybe not Not everybody everyone already agreed or Already believe in this but uh we really Think that Bitcoin is really the best Gold out there but we really think that

Commerce and finance are much much Bigger opportunity there and we really Think that we uh we can use Bitcoin as a Base as a base infrastructure to Reinvent when architect finance and That's why we we say okay you cannot do This on the first layer right for many Reasons so you need scalability and That's why we are working on second Layer because is is the tool is the way To achieve what we think our vision uh Is so uh but yeah just going back to What wpam does is U more like a venture Builder so what we do we invest Engineering time advisory and also Capital uh lately uh in couple of Ventures per year two three uh partner Per year so we are not really like Looking for you know uh many many Partner but we just try to select and we Work with them with a multi-year um you Know Vision to help them to drive their Bitcoin vision and so again uh we deploy Our engineering team most of the time But also Capital when when we can and How do you identify opportunities is it The the financial layer that Particularly interests you or what do You think are the big opportunities yeah Again I think like the two main pieces Um are on a side we really believe that We need to bring back the Commerce that Was the early um killer feature of Bitcoin uh you know Unstoppable Commerce

I think that's that's one one thing and Of course now you know you need really Scalability component to um you know to Achieve this Vision that's why lately we Have been like looking at many other um Second layer scaling uh solution and the Other side I think Financial derivatives Um you know Financial contracts or Derivatives are very very interesting And if we can remove as much as possible Trust to this process and we can be the Pioneer and you know be able to create a Platform for for that I think that's Would be very very interesting for us uh To be there to be the first uh to build This can you talk a little bit about Some of the specific tools and projects That you've been involved in maybe Mar Ena wallet TX Fuji can you give a little Bit of an overview into into what those Do and then what the kind of the Thinking was behind them and the Opportunity for those as well absolutely I think we we've been like um starting Working on liquid very early I think From uh 20192 and we realized you know was very Interesting platform compared to the old Other blockchain that were out there and But we saw there was a lot of uh tooling Missing um a lot of U interesting Primitiv that you must need when you Want to bring to production financial Application so for example we started

With liquid taxi which is you know Service that allow you to pay uh for Fees on liquid just using Teter so Imagine you are a Teter only wallet well You don't need to pay for lbtc or what People are use maybe you know they call It gas fee in other blockchain you don't Need that so you can really have a Teter Only wallet so we build this and we've Been operating since uh three years now Um then we also we we saw that was very Interesting to have a sort of browser Extension wallet that will allow Developer to iterate faster on their web Application to not every time to build Their own wallet right so they want just Want to have a wallet that pops up and Ask you for confirmation for spending a Transaction very similar to what Metamask is in the let's say ethereum World uh so Marina has been has been There since 2020 as well and TX which is A project with our partners and we have Been contributor open source contributor To that and the idea of TX was like okay Let's take the um OTC Des and you know Request for quote Style Trading and Trying to use a Tomy swap um on on Liquid and also that have been have been Live since a couple of years learning a Lot uh from many partner and trying to Talk many companies about that and the Latest project also Fuji which we Launched last year is a Bitcoin backed

Uh stable coin which means that we use a Series of covenants what cool kids call Smart contracts on liquid to regulate The ISS and the burn of the stable coin And the stable coin is always over Collateralized which means that you know U as long you know the the amount of Collateral is there uh there is the same Supply of stable coin circulating in the Market U similar to what is makered now Maybe originally in ethereum and as a Very interesting cool property that you Know you can of replicate on a evm or Ethereum style um you know uh chain what Was it that Drew you to liquid initially To start building on top of liquid Actually we started looking aligning in 20 iming 2019 uh when was ready uh but We we saw that was very hard for us to Capture any valuable market share in the Sense that either you became the next Stripe and then you became a custodial Payment processor uh so then okay you Can capture value you can capture um you Know uh some profits out of uh lining But was very hard for us to justify to You know deploy our engineering team or Building things for lining in the end Because in the end is very limited you Can only do payments I mean I love it I Use lining every day I use it with bit Trill every day because you know I I Really uh get the point but as a company We didn't s the value for us to um to

Build something that we could sell Fund In the first thing because again W Venture is sell funded so it's not um Never raise any VC around so was very Hard for us to justify so that's we said Okay but liquid is very interesting Because actually cater to inter exchange Um settlement right that that was the Initial let's say promise back in the Days and we said okay maybe exchange are More our profit itable business and they May be interesting in more R&D or more You know sophisticated tooling so that's Why we started working on liquid and we Really think that now you know it's very Has been a a really good choice uh so Far because it allow also us to test Beted all these Covenant proposal uh That are coming out and we have been Able to have a team that is at the edge Compared to the rest of the ecosystem I Saw a presentation of yours online and It started off with a slide that says Liquid sucks so I wanted to ask you what Are some of the misconcept itions about Liquid we touched on this last week when We had a conversation with Samson about Maybe creating some liquid fud dice what What are the things that you think People think about liquid but get wrong Yeah it's very interesting because that Was a liquid uh Federation Meetup uh Actually so and and wasn't not meant to Be public no no I'm joking I I knew it

Was recorded well I found it on YouTube Yeah no no absolutely absolutely I think Like Li Federation put it online um I Think mean my side I wanted to attract Attention of the of the audience and and Also I think people that know and Already work in the liquid ecosystem Already know very well what they do and What wpen does so it was very funny Because he said okay if even you know Marco is saying liquid sax there is a Issue you know I wanted to attract a Little bit of attention so just a you Know a joke um but actually if you go Forward in the presentation said no I'm I'm joking actually I think it's a Really great um ecosystem my Presentation was more about trying to Get a narrative because liquid is very Good for many many things but you know Like if you know most the time if you Sell to everybody you never sell Anything right so you really need to a Little bit of focus and you really need To get ayem to be very focused on one Two uh use case and that was my Presentation back back in 2021 I guess um on what on what I Thought you know at the time was Necessary for you know liquid Federation The Narrative of liquid should have been Uh focused uh much more so that was the Idea and in general my side was like we Need should focus on develop we should

Make it super easy for every new Developer coming from other chain to Build on top of it because that this way You get more brain power more ideas and That's maybe nine out of 10 ideas are Dumb and they never will reach product Market fit but you know the combination Of this uh create create momentum and Definitely creates also potentially the N the 10th out of 10 idea that then uh Can become the killer up and that was Kind of the the idea behind building all Of these tools that can then be used by Other developers on liquid 100% 100% And We saw a lot of times people coming to Us especially from IR standpoint because They maybe already use our tool open Some requests to our open source tool And in general a lot of a lot of our Partner uh came or know us through our Open source uh work and um developer Tooling so I think it's a nice uh way uh To you know to to basically um show and Show what you can do and and in general Also a way to increase the number of People you can hire the number of people You can work with and the new business That came that can board right uh from From this tooling you mentioned liquid Taxi I think that was um speaking of Samson I think that was part of his new Aqua wallet is that correct exactly Exactly so I think um Marina's been Integrating liquid taxi since the

Beginning of course I mean we try to dog Food our own thing um we have been Deploying in a let's say white label Scenario uh with two two Enterprise Customer uh back in the days um and yes I think Aqua is the commercial uh wallet Now integrating so I think it's uh has Been a good call back in the days and I'm very happy that has been useful for For wet developers so I think recently We've been hearing a lot of people Talking about different ways to stack Bitcoin for example doing lightning Withdrawals from The Exchange and then Use something like bolts exchange to Stack to liquid Bitcoin um as you Mentioned in your own cool um self- Custody how do you see these sort of Solutions developing in the future I'm Super super bullish about this us case And I've been one of you know really Pushing this use case to friends and and Partner around because I think like in The end what we saw uh is lining became The sort of sort of lingua franka you Know like it's is the connecting tissue Between you know like exchange custodian Small wallets which is very easy right So you don't need to join a federation You just need to open a channel which is This is much better than for example Joining the liquid Federation in terms Of process because it's really almost Open right and everybody with some

Bitcoin liquidity can do it and I really Think that lining is great when you do Server to server payments right so when You go from example from with Phenix you You do a linning payment directly to Another server which in this case is Bolts that you know does a trustless Atomy swap so you can really receive uh From an exchange without having a ling Node but use lining as a as a rail uh to Do this and it's very very very Interesting because you can really Increase um the AR let's say custodian Or side chain or Federation that they're Popping up so I think that's that's Super valuable and they really see this Is a becoming a standard what about Layer one scaling conversations and and Some talk that's around that what do you Think about covenants and do you think What do you think have been the more Interesting conversations and proposals That have come up recently I may be Biased on on this side uh we' have been Uh very close to bak and we have been uh Giving a grant uh Grant last year um to B to keep building on Arc and I think Arc is very interesting because has a Different scaling approach to lining and Is very very more close to what we Believe back in the day so I think we It's great to have a digital gold Narrative but at the same time we really Believe that we should go back to a more

Commerce Unstoppable Commerce kind of Narrative and I think Arc has the pro Has the possibility to do that because You you don't only scale payments but You scale Bitcoin transaction in general So you can do escrow and back in the Days everybody was using Bitcoin escrow And was one of the killer application Right so I can trade with anybody I can Do e-commerce without trusting nobody I I just have you know an escrow that Allows me to uh to do any type of Exchange in real life but you know this Doesn't scale and you know when Bitcoin Started becoming you know more used was Evident that this was not possible to do On chain and think like second layer Proposal that not only solve the Payments issue but solve in general any Type of Bitcoin transaction well those Are very interesting for us and we Really want to uh be be part of it and Try to to drive this uh forward what do You mean by sharing utxos and how to Covenant make that possible sure I think Sharing Ito is possible already uh with Bitcoin You can imagine you just create a lot of A lot of cosigner in a very big multisig This sounds you know very very easy but Actually this means that you must be a Server right people you know use mobile Phone they go you know um offline for a Bit and they will lose the possibility

To keep creating the new state right Because imagine that when you share uto It means that you have one tic own chain But actually there are many slices that You know that are owned by different People and how you make sure that Everyone can you know send this share to Someone else or get out of that share or Enter so you can do that that already With Bitcoin but again you need to be Online you need to every minutes Potentially sign which is very Unprobable unlikely um instead covenants Allow you to do this in a more let's say Non-interactive fashion which means Again uh I don't need to be online I can Just send some transaction and sending a Transaction to an address the address Already as encoded hold the future Execution um let's say logic to be a Reading thata address and this allow to Do offline protocols or in general to do Protocols that are easy to to build or To run on a mobile phone or a browser Which is what what most of people normal People use right nobody is a system Linux system administrator and it's very Art for that so you think initi you Think eventually The Narrative will come Back to peer-to-peer digital cache we've Kind of went from peer-to-peer digital Cash to um um digital gold and then Maybe we come back in the end I hope so In the sense that this is my personal um

Um Vision I think like in the end like It's very very valuable to have a bit a Bit Uh digital cach uh this is very very Useful for sure you can use potentially Liquid you can use um maybe Federation But the fact the market basically spoke Already and you know is using other Other chain at the moment uh to solve This Commerce issue and I think this is A this is a problem because I really Think that we um was very very um you Know was already uh killer feature so I'm not saying was something never been Possible but was possible when there was Kale right when there was true and you Can use the chain to do that and was Very easy you just get an address you Send this a Bitcoin transaction boom This is amazing this has been like the Best user experience you can have for You know open borderless and you know International payments uh you can have So I think it's just matter of scaling And new proposal regarding covenants uh Attack this point as well right so they Don't keep it out of the all the discour So I think it's very it's very exciting For me a new a new wave coming back to Bitcoin do you think it's scale I guess It's scaling but it's also you know as Bitcoin gets bigger and then the Volatility starts to decrease maybe That's a a kind of a Natural Evolution

That happens and then people go back and Use it for remittance more I I remember When I first got into Bitcoin there was A lot of talk about using Bitcoin for Remittance markets Right There Was You Know to to the Philippines and countries Like this and after tether came onto the Scene because it had lower volatility it It kind of took over that market so do You think eventually Bitcoin gets to a Point where the volatility decreases and Then it will just naturally absorb that Market or reabsorb that market I should Say I think it's very interesting uh Because back in the days uh remittances Was one of the main use case and I think Like when you basically have at the Edges uh some someone that is exchanging For you cash for Bitcoin Bitcoin uh for Cash in the local currency that is not Uh a big deal the volatility even now But even in the future if the let's say Volatility will will try to Trend to an Equilibrium it will never get to be I Think stable because stability is an Artificial construct only human central Banks uh can do that so my take actually Is like sure Teter will be still and Will always be uh one of the solution But at the same time I foresee using Commant to create some sort of more Index synthetic index so maybe you have A basket or maybe Fiat coins uh Fiat uh Stable coin like that or maybe other um

Other asset that you're tracking real World value maybe with oracles things Like that very similar to what I think We were exper with Fuji at the beginning Of the year I think that will be the Natural scenario so you have some Something else some IOU with different Degree or you know of trust and many Trade-offs and potentially with Covenants you can even do it in a Trustless way so yeah very excited to See how how to fix this but yes for now Teter is definitely the the King on this And it's solving real problem because When you go to Turkey or when I go to Dubai or you know you really see people You see Bazaar around Istanbul like with Exchanging tether uh for you know for Turkish l so I think that's that has Been a real use case in real life yeah I Sometimes think people in North America Maybe kind of the West in general don't Appreciate how widely um tether is used In the rest of the world I'm based in Asia of course and and tether is just Very dominant here and used all over the Place no absolutely one of the things That's kind of characterized the last Six or 12 months has an has been an Uptick in transaction fees how do you Think that's influenced um the other Bitcoin lers over the last 6 or 12 Months I don't think like directly Influen especially um liquid uh I didn't

This is my my take I don't think did Influence right away but I think like The fact that people recognize that on I Fe scenario lining as some issue Especially in a self custodial way this Brought you know let's say the Bitcoiners so people that were very very Fond in Ling because we always see Things inside our bubble but from Outside people don't even knew that was Lightning you know people outside Bitcoin so I think these people our People bitcoiners said okay lining is Not the Panacea you know it's not like The one one solution for everything so They started looking more into liquid so I think more a lot of people coming from Let's say not even touching liquid Because I don't see the the problem I Don't see the um the solution that is Solving me because when fees were very Low of course there is was no need no Reason um to you know to look to side Chains or to Federation but now people Started recognizing this was like Necessary and yeah so I think this is This has been the main Trend uh so far Okay we've seen an uptake in um in in in Liquid network capacity in the last Couple of months as well do you think It's those fees that are pushing that up Or do you think it's just broader kind Of general adoption of liquid yeah I Think for sure a lot of lining node

Router um rooting nodes um and operators They they they have a choice now either To pay 10x to their 10x you know the Fees compared to to their competitors That maybe are using a custodial Liquidity provider or liquid which is a Let's say a Federated you know is a is a Is not really noncustodial like right But at the same time uh it's much better Than using a custodian that is basically Doing for you the liquidity the solving The in liquidity so I think all these Businesses that already running big Routing nodes they understood that Liquid can be a nice way to rebalance The channel and I think that's has been The main news case I saw so far and Bolts has been a great driver Uh for this use case because they have Been already very big in the lighting Node um you know router operator Community and so I think this for sure Has been one of the use case um so I Think yes this has been the main driver Uh so far another kind of um misunder Understanding I wanted to touch on about Liquid too is what what do you think People often confuse um are there's Misunderstandings around elements and Liquid can you explain the difference Between the two and provide a little Color on that sure absolutely I think Elements is really just soft sofware is An open source software anybody can use

Anybody can use it to create a Bitcoin Like network with more capabilities uh Be asset be covenants be you know uh Confidential transaction then liquid is The first Production Network that is using Elements so I think like it's more easy To understand elements is like Bitcoin Core it's just a piece of software and Then liquid is actually the name of the Network which is a federation with more 100 members and W is part of it and but Anybody can really spin up his own Federation even recently last year Blockstream even release open source the Functionary code which is the code that Is needed to to run your own blog Producer in elements uh blockchain so I Think now really anybody can take it and And do their own network if they wish Great and another topic I wanted to Cover with you are Bitcoin Atomic swaps I understand that you have a new um Project out called vulpen banko can you Talk a little bit about that yeah I've Been um as I said before we have been Very uh I mean our company we always try To do a lot of research and development On many on many things and again Covenants are very cool and very hot Topic and we started with the idea to to See what we could do with CTV because I've been pionering and very expert with Covenant and liquid last in the last

Years but on on liquid you really have Like very full recursive Covenant so you Have very lot of capability is and CTV Is a very let's say streamlined and very Little Covenant um um proposal in the Sense that what you can do is very is Much more limited than what you can do On liquid already and so we said okay Again I really need to take to you know Put my hands on something so with the Team we decided to start researching What we can do with CTV and I think like For now on bitcoin the main the main Driver I will not say the main driver But um the community is very interesting In privacy and we said okay coin join The user experience of coin join or pay Join or you know in general privacy Preserving uh techniques are very clanky To use you need to download a specific Wallet you need to use that specific uh Wallet provider I don't know like it's Very custom and I think this limited Adoption right so people should be able To use their own exchange if they wish Or their own Bitcoin wallet they don't Need to have a purpose only you know Purpose you know uh purpose you know Like a specific wallet U to uh to do This and should be super easy just Sending it to an address and I think Covenants help with this covenants allow You to encode this logic that you that You want in an address and then you can

Print this address you on a screen on a Phone and everybody sending to that Address then will trigger some sort of Execution and we started seeing what we Can use CTV for doing this to make it Super easy you know coin join or pay Join but actually CTV was not good Enough enough not practical enough and So we said okay let's go back to our you Know what we know and we said okay let's Build it on on using elements um op Codes which allow you to do recursive Covenants and we realized that doing This was not only a privacy preserving Uh Tool uh what was especially much Better uh trading protocol as well so You can swap not only Bitcoin for Bitcoin but you can swap Bitcoin for Tther or Bitcoin for Fu USD right and Vice versa and I've been working with Tex and any other other Atomic swap in The last two years I really recognize How a little change just during Covenant Protocol will improve a lot the user Experience and the cost of operating for Example a trading desk on top of this Atomic swap so we really believe that on A side is a good test bed to see hey Guys if we have recursive current if you Have elements introspection of code on Bitcoin we can do a much better privacy Preserving uh tool here or right now we Can deploy it on liquid and do a much Better a much better trading protocol

That allow everybody to just scan a QR Code so you don't need a special wallet Right you don't need Tex you don't need Sewalk you don't need you know a Specific wallet that support that Protocol and talk in the back with a Server things like that like like it Works right now but you simply send a Teder to an address and then you will Receive Bitcoin simple as that what what Do you think is when you meet young Developers or people that are interested In Bitcoin or new to liquid Network what Do you recommend to them as a place to Start first of all becoming a software Engineer is hard by by Itself starting especially in the Bitcoin space you can be even double Harder so I think in general what what We see when when especially we hire new Engineer in our team uh we trying to Hire people that potentially are already Senior software engineer and they want To learn and they're very interesting to Change let's say career or change field Or we are let's say unior mid developer But they already are in the software Engineering so I think that's first step Is very important otherwise will be a Little bit hard uh that being said you You you should not only be a software Developer you can just be for example an Architect or a protocol designer and Maybe that doesn't really you know it's

Not really important to have previous Experience as a software engineer um but Yeah like what I recommend really I Think like yeah Bitcoin itself is very Interesting to start playing with and Liquid is the most similar thing you can Get in terms of let's say um other Places where you can do more things Right because a lot of lot of times you Start with coin you say okay cool I can Send receive my savings and then they Switch to ethereum or to any other chain Because you know as a software developer You want to build things and and you Feel that Bitcoin is not expressive Enough for you so I think like before Just dropping Bitcoin and go to other Chain maybe try looking on liquid as Well because you can really do anything You can do but for example ethereum and Maybe even much better uh again I think It's just a tooling mismatch and also a Little bit of marketing compared to Other chain you know they have heavy Pockets a little bit just a little Bit yes Excell do you have those Conversations with people um doing smart Contracts and other protocols and and How do those conversations typically I Think I think the narrative is that There's a wide divide between people who Use ethereum for example and people who Use Bitcoin or liquid and I've actually Found that when I you know when when I

Introduce liquid to people people who Have built things on ethereum they're Often curious they a lot of them didn't Actually even know that liquid exists or That you can do these things on liquid And once they dig into it they're Actually kind of curious and interested Um so I find that maybe that divide is Not as big or as deep as I previously Thought what do you think about that and Have you had those kind of experiences As well no 100% 100% And I think like It's very for us is much easier to get Someone that already has some let's say Ethereum exposure in terms of as a Software engineer because of course a Lot of um Concepts a lot of um way of Thinking are already explained uh let's Say especially when we want to work on Some covenants or some Covenant protocol On liquid um but yeah like it's very Common it's very common you see Developer that start right away with Ethereum I think like especially in the Bay Area there's a lot of community a Lot of push in in having this developer And bright software engineer to work and Start working on ethereum not even Touching Bitcoin so I think yes we need A lot of let's say narrative push in Trying to to tell to people okay Bitcoin Is not only Boomer money you know like I Always hear this this word like it's not Only Boomer money I I mean yes maybe you

Know now you can do limited things and Scalability is an issue but I think Having these people you know trying to Reason about Bitcoin tic model is very Is very useful so yes all right well You're you're involved in a lot of Different things in Bitcoin and and Liquid and and lightning what gets you Most excited about um kind of Bitcoin Generally in the next six months or 12 Months again I think Arc uh is very is Very interesting because it's bringing Back this digital cach uh narrative Finally and again is not only for Payments you can scale uh almost any Type of transaction Bitcoin type Transaction type so yes I'm really Looking forward to see how Arc um you Know um evolves and ideally you know What will be the initial uh production Use case this year and yeah I'm super Pumped about this that's great well Appreciate your time today Marco yes Likewise thank you thank you for having Me thank You

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