Advancing Bitcoin Education Using Base58 and Bitcoin++ with Lisa Neigut – Blockstream Talk #35

Welcome back to blog stream talk today We're speaking with Lisa nigut a core Lightning developer who also manages a Number of Bitcoin educational projects Including Bas 58 the world's best Bitcoin protocol school and Bitcoin Plus+ a developer Focus conference Series this is the third part of our Recent lightning series uh following up On conversations with Rusty Russell and Christian Decker I've personally found This series to be very helpful in Understanding green light how Blockstream is working to drive Lightning Network adoption on both the User side and the retailer side but also How bitcoin's major layer 2s liquid and Lightning can be used together for an Even more powerful product if you follow The series you'll notice that there's Quite a bit of overlap and I think it's Useful to get the same Concepts Presented from slightly different Perspectives if you haven't followed the Series I would definitely recommend you Go back and check out the conversations With Rusty and Christian enjoy the Conversation and if you think there's Anything we missed or that you want Addressed in future conversations let us Know in the comments Below hi Lisa welcome to the show hey Thanks for having me on Jesse great so We've done a bit of a series on

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Lightning recently we've had Rusty on We've had uh Christian on and we've been Wanting to get you on for a couple of Years so it's it's great to finally have You here today cool yeah I'm glad to be Able to join you so to start off maybe You could give us a bit of a background On who you are what's your background And and what you're working on um at Blockstream so I I work on Lightning I Started at blockstream in 2018 um on the core lightning team Before that I was on the custodial Bitcoin backend team at Cash app um over A a Block Company um I started doing Bitcoin stuff in 2018 um and joined the Core lightning team that same year so I've been working on lightning on doing Spec work and implementations for about Five years now um all of that at Blackstream I'm technically on sabatical From blackstream right now I went on Sabatical in January um so trying to Take a book break to work on getting Some more classes and online coursework Out and maybe a textbook about how Bitcoin protocols work um both on the Main chain and on lightning oh very cool Definitely want to talk about some of That work today too but um how did you Get pulled over to the lightning Network What brought you over there and what Were your goals kind of working on that Initially yeah that's a great question

Um you know uh the opportunity to work On Lightning kind of wasn't something I Was like looking for but as an Opportunity it kind of came across my my Desk so to speak and I decided that it Seemed like a fun new kind of in 2018 or 2018 um you know lightning had really Gotten started I think in they did main Net launched in like 2017 so I joined Maybe a year or less than that after um Lightning had been like up and running As an actual Network um so it seemed Like a really kind of cool fun project One where I'd get to work on open source Software and doing something on you know Bitcoin payment rails which weirdly is Like something I think I've discovered That I really care about a lot um the Ability for people to transact in a Peer-to-peer way um with uh you know With with no intermediaries but being Able to do it in a way that makes like Real online e-commerce possible is like Really cool and fun and I think that's Like kind of the real reason I was Excited about working on lightning um Being able to figure out how that would Work for you know people that want to Sell stuff online as a contributor to Open source core lightning can you maybe Um I guess over the last couple of Conversations with Rusty and with Christian we've talked about some of the Different implementations um we learned

Amongst other things that eair means Lightning in French um which is kind of Cool can you talk a little bit about What are some of the differentiating Features of of your implementation of The core lightning implementation yeah So Russy started it I want to say Probably back in like 2016 long time ago Um and his idea for it would it would be Like spec first so like our Implementation aims to be the most spec Compliant um and kind of uh across Across the board we have the most of the Specs implemented in the implementation Um implementation and it would also be Like the reference implementation that Was written in C right so we would have As much stuff that uh what do you call It so we would have like a full working Lightning node that is implemented in C Um and is done as simply as possible With like the least amount of like bells And whistles and um anytime there's Something new that gets added as the Spec or proposed we would be the Implementation that would be hopefully On the front lines of help helping get That implemented also very cool and what Are some of the challenges you guys have Have faced in the while you're Developing that yeah um challenges I Think like so I think like early on you Know core lightning was really focused On spec and spec work and how does

Lightning work and we didn't really Focus very much on like how you would Build on top of core lightning like you Know if you're a web dev how do you Interact with the core lightning node For a long time we were like we don't Know like I don't I don't know like Figure it out we got an RPC you could Talk to the RPC over Unix socket like What do you mean you don't know what a Unix socket is um like uh please call Back later when you figure it out kind Of thing um so I think like in terms of Challenges like early adoption was Something that core lightning definitely Didn't really spend much time with or on Did you even care about that was that Like your focus or me personally no it Was not my focus well I mean the team I Don't think it was anything we were Particularly focused on we had users and We like users would give us feedback and Would use it and then be like hey I need Things so like we I think we were pretty Responsive to people that were using it But it wasn't like we need to get a th Core lightning nodes on the network Tomorrow and we need to be the number One platform for building your web app On top of like that wasn't things that We were focused on we were focused on Okay like you know I've a lot of my Early work I've I've kind of realized There's like the way to explain what I

Was working on early on is like like a Spec update we've calling it dual Funding but I realized just kind of this Week that there's a a better way to talk About kind of what I was focused on so I Was focused on something that I've been Calling um I think you could call it Lightning V2 um I might get in trouble From people with that but whatever I'm Going to stick with it um the the idea Being like this is like a protocol Update to how lightning works with like Onchain so like Lightning's relationship With onchain um we've written a whole New set of protocols that I was helped Author and design and then worked with Um T Bast over a a San kind of on the CLA and Phoenix team to get them into Our respective implement ations um and That kind of encompasses like we're I Would say we're like it I was working on The first phase which was opening Channels in this new V2 so V2 of opening Channels um also known as dual funding That's kind of one of the things that it Lets you do is it lets you open Channels With money on both sides in it um Revolutionary I know um and then uh Phase two is placing which Dusty Dustin Dutmer has been working on getting Implemented and corating for us and then Phase three will be splic to close which We haven't really started working on yet And don't have a spec for but when those

Three kind of pieces are done then I Think you you'll be able to use Lightning I'm calling it lightning V2 um Because it's going to let you um be a Lot more Dynamic with your onchain funds In a lightning Channel than you are Currently anyways so I was working on Building out lightning V2 what what I'm Now deciding to call lightning V2 um Should we file a trade mark kind of Patent or something yeah I don't yeah I Don't know I mean I think like you know One thing that we struggle with is like Lightning doubs is like helping people Understand who aren't enlightening Understand like what we're working on Right um and why it's important and why They should care about it and like dual Funding just people like doesn't really People like I don't know what that is The name of the protocol is open Channel V2 right so like it is the V2 protocols Um and it's what splicing is builds Builds on top of that so it's like yeah It's V2 of lightning Channel opens and Moving money around taking a step back So if adoption is seen as kind of one of The early challenges do you think that Greenl is a possible solution to that Yeah so I don't know how much your Listeners know about greenl but um Really it's a um it's like a lightning Node as a service thing um service that Christian Decker and some other

Brilliant engineers at BLX stre been Working on for a number of years now so Right now if you run a corela node you Kind of have you need a computer Somewhere that you can download and run It on it can't be a Windows computer Probably can't be a a mobile phone um so You're going to need basically a laptop Or preferably some sort of desktop Plugged in somewhere that you can put Your note on right or you could put it On a server that someone else runs in The cloud but that's not really Something we'd recommend because you Know it's got keys to funds on it that Sort of thing green light is like okay The number of people that have that set Of requirements right like a computer They can put their note on Etc um is pretty limited so green light Is like an opportunity for people to run A node in the cloud on hosted Infrastructure but keep their keys on Their phone in their purse I don't know Somewhere like um somewhere that's not Like a server in the cloud um so I think Like the idea right is that green light Makes it possible now that like there's Suddenly this way that you could have a Core lightning node that's running or Backing your application and then we had A service kind of Provider like breeze Come in and build like a SDK on top of It so now you can have mobile phones

That applications that have lightning Nodes associated with them um with much Much less work on the behalf of like the Lightning developer um so I think that Breeze is like the work that breeze has Been doing with her SDK I think relay Who's adopted the SDK Breeze's SDK um Has as far as I've seen definitely 100% Proven the whole I think thesis that Green light is the way to get more nodes Into an user's hands a lot more easily Um in an interface that they're used to Like on their mobile phone for the most Part right um so that's a long-winded Answer but like yeah I think it has been But I also think that it kind of proves Out that it's not like you can just add Like an RP it's not like you could just Add like oh you can make app calls to You can make like RPC calls to your node Over HTTP really in order to build Accessibility to lightning Infrastructure you almost need like a Couple more pieces right like you need Someone who can help manage these nodes You need another provider that can help Manage the liquidity you need someone Else who can help you manage your keys Because they're not going to be on those Machines anymore um and it's taking a Long time for us to get this green light Project out the door I think that's a Testament to like all of the work and Tooling that needed to be built and all

These different layers before we can get To the point where like okay now we can Have really cool quick syncing Applications that app developers are Able to build on took us a long time to Get there so I guess in a nutshell it Kind of lowers the the technical and Maybe infrastructure entry barrier for People that are interested in using this Kind of technology and in whatever They're doing whether it's video games Or you know anything something else like That so it's in a format that they're Used to working with like an SDK it's Just a library that you make calls to And all just works under the hood you Don't have to worry about is the node up Will the node be there what's my backup Strategy am I able to get gossip Etc Yeah and then again as Rusty and Christian have pointed out that it's It's non-custodial so from you know if There's regulatory consider or anything Like that or ethical considerations or Security considerations it kind of it Seems like a better better better um Route on all three of those kind of Angles definitely yeah both for like People who want to build on Lightning Such that like um you know you want to Build on lightening you want your users To be have custody of those funds Because you don't want to be a custodian Raid you being Greenlight like

Blockstream who runs greenl doesn't want To be a custodian Breeze who's helping Write the SDK doesn't want to be a Custodian the app developer who's Stuning like that application Functionality to people doesn't want to Be a custodian we want the custodian to Be you know the person who um whose Noted is or whose like lightning funds Those are and green light is like a Great way I think to to get that from Like a you know kind of like re like we Sort of built what we thought the Lightning um appdev experience should be From the ground up and I think it really Shows in terms of like thinking all the Way through to like okay where's the Custody actually all right shifting gear Slightly as an open source developer What's maybe some advice you would give To other open source developers that are Interesting and contributing to Something like core lightning yeah That's a great question um I think like First of all I always I run into people And they're always like what you're Doing is like you're it's really out of T Out Of Reach for me it's too much it's Too hard like I don't know C I don't Know anything about lightning like how Can I someone who knows nothing and has Like no skills really contribute um and I think that that keeps a lot of people From even spending time like looking

Into or reading the docs or like trying To set up a node that sort of thing um We love like the tiniest of Contributions mean a lot to us so that Can mean like oh I read your docs and I Found a typo great we'd love to get a Pquest from you we will like say you Help contribute to making the project Better open source really kind of Depends and thrives when people in The Wider Community feel a sense of Ownership and feel enabled and empowered To like submit changes to to like the Project um um so I think that like I Think my like advice or whatever would Be like don't be don't get in your own Way of contributing right like don't Stop yourself from even like beginning That's great and then maybe flipping That question around what do you think Open source projects need to need to be Doing to attract new developers to Contribute yeah I think our docs are Like not as pretty it sounds terrible But like you know open source especially Coming from like the Linux like Ecosystem we're not known for having Like nicely formatted and well-designed Document Like you go you look at like a Competitor eyes as like lightning lab They have beautiful documents like if You go look at like their engineering Docs it's like you know it's just like

It's a nice white thing it's got like a Nice color scheme it's like easy it's Laid out they exist they're easy to find They're in a format that you're used to Seeing across like other websites with Like written documents Etc I think that That's like from our perspective well From my perspective I feel like that's Really um made it harder for Outsiders To figure out what's going on how to get Involved like where the different parts At Etc um I definitely know there's Stuff I've worked on where people like You know I get frequently people like I Didn't know that's a thing where do I Read more about it and I'm like I don't Know I don't think there is a place you Can go read more about it right um so I Think that's something that you know if Someone wanted to contribute to helping Make better I don't know document Repository or make it prettier that sort Of thing I think that would be something That we could really use and would also Make the project more accessible at the Same time yeah that's interesting you Know I mean people have always talked About Bitcoin and and marketing and and You' seen the word alific come come up Quite a bit kind of recently um and Doing this podcast I talked to a lot of People like yourself that are doing Really really interesting on and around Bitcoin um and it doesn't appear to be a

Lot of alific to me but it's also like It's also like as if there do you think There's like a marketing effort that Needs to be made or how does that happen Where you kind of break through that Narrative and that myth oh a th% yeah I Mean in fact this is why I started the Bitcoin plus plus so I run a conference Series like a Dev only Bitcoin only Dev Only conference series called Bitcoin Plus+ um we just did our fourth Conference like last month in October um The fourth one in like 16 months so like In a year and a half we've done like Four conferences um the reason I started It is because I felt like even Developers didn't know who was working On what and what kind of cool things Were happening and enough dabs start to Think there's nothing cool happening They'll leave even though it's like not Even true so um 100% think there's a Little bit of a marketing like gap Between what's happening and who hears About it um my my like answer at least In terms of how to like help socialize Information among doves was to start Bringing doves together um I think There's definitely some work that could Be done in terms of like how do we make Better and more informative articles Available like press releases how do we Educate the people that are telling People about what's going on you know

Like um um maybe that's podcasters maybe That's um people that work at Bitcoin or Publications um I think the other thing About it is like was I going to say um Another aspect of it is that like I Think people do get a little afraid that Like they're not going to understand Like the kind of like there's like Layers right people working on it and Then there's the people whose job is Telling everyone what's going on like People who work for a media company or People who do Gast and a lot of times I Feel like I scare people because they're Like oh Lisa's like a like core Dev she Works on core lightning things she like Does all these things that are like I Feel are very outside of my capacity for Understanding and so they like won't Even like start asking questions or like Trying to understand what's going on and I think that like I don't know how I Don't know how you break that like I Don't know how you give people Confidence to like confidence that they Can understand it this is literally the Feeling I have before every Podcast right exactly and so right right Okay so like Jesse like how do we get How do we like I feel that's a common Experience for a lot of people around These topics and I don't know how to Like encourage people and give them the Confidence that these things aren't

Stuff that's outside of their ability to Understand yeah I'm not sure what the Answer is either but I do believe a lot Of the blockstream philosophy seems to Be built around like learn by doing and That seems to be the approach that Greenl has taken and I think that's Probably the right one you know we joke Around like Rusty and I we're joking Around about this and we get this on Other podcasts too about how people Never learn about custody their own Assets it's just this cycle that every Cycle people get burnt again and it's Just there's a lot of things that people Need to learn by doing you know what I Mean and that's just I think that just Probably just takes time it's true and This is and you need people that have The ability to go out like so you need People who are out there like kind of Evangelizing and showing and providing Opportunities for people to do right Because you know I think this is a good Point like I have this theory that like No one 95% of people aren't going to Learn how to custody their own Bitcoin Unless they have a friend who helps them Do it um like unless you have someone Who like gets you together and walks you Through setting up like a hardware Wallet or like taking like writing the Seed phrases down Etc like as a friend And as a group and as a community like

You're not going to do it it is a show Thing it's not a tell thing and you Can't tell someone to go home and like Do the 12w things no you have to like do Like a couple Weare party where like Everyone is like doing it together um And then after people see it and touch It and feel it and have a friend there Who's like let me show you how to do it Yeah but that makes adoption really slow It just makes slow adoption yeah I think I think that's true I think you know Lightning adoption is probably the same Too I can think the first time I did a Lightning transaction and it came I was Like oh my god it worked like one second That's or when I send um you know when I Send uh liquid liquid tether to bit next From my green wallet and it settles in Like one second for like a couple Pennies that's like every time it's like That is amazing that that works that Quickly um so yeah people need to go Through that and do it and that's you Know that just takes time I think so I Don't I don't know what to say about That so that's the tricky thing about The marketing it takes time and I think It it does take um it takes time and it Takes effort and it takes people who Have like the the bandwidth to be able To like organize that and bring people In and Tak people showing up like this Is my big thing you know when I'm like

Running events they're doing classes It's like my I think my own success like You know they say I think this is a Wood Allen quote like 90% of success is Literally just showing up um yeah yeah Showing up to the right place at the Right time is like a large part of that But like if you're not showing up Anywhere that's so true that you have to Swing right that's so true I think a lot I was just talking about this with my Wife actually but a lot of things it's Just like your attitude you have to Maintain positive energy you have to Maintain an open mind and look at things I think that's such an important kind of Just broader life lesson yeah And I feel like we've seen a lot of People on Twitter sort of like taking Swings like the other kind of swings at Lightning right like they're just like Being deby downers like it's not going To work like it's um just kind of been Like the general narrative lately um I Feel like some of that is coming out of Like I was told a narrative X about Lightning and it hasn't lived up to Narrative X and so now I think it's not Going to work or you know at least I can Say it didn't do this thing but um I Feel like those people aren't probably Aren't running their nodes they probably Hav't touch like a a wallet like a Mobile wallet lately like some of the

Ones that people recommend yeah no There's a there's a lot of that out There I mean liquid gets hit with that a Lot too you know I I work at at bitfinex Security certainly bitfinex and te get Get their fair share of that negative Energy but don't be that guy goad and Try it yeah yeah it's like the opposite Of showing up it's like I don't know Showing up and trying to make sure that No one else comes also or it's almost Like I feel like they're trying to keep Other people from showing up too and I'm Like okay that's not welcome that's not Very welcoming in or D or whatever I Don't know yeah and I think with Especially with the staff that you know We're doing a bitfinex Securities with Token I Securities the stuff that you're Doing on Lightning the stuff that the Guys are doing on liquid all of this is Trying to build on top of the ecosystem None of this is scammy or trying to do Anything nefarious we're trying to build On top of the on top of Bitcoin and and You know if you're a crypto person Crypto more broadly so I don't see Anything in there that people should be Taking shots at I think everybody should Be supporting of this stuff totally yeah I mean it's fun it's cool it's like fun And cool when it works yes yeah yeah it Definitely is so I wanted to ask more About some of the educational stuff that

You said you're working on what what Kind of a conference is Bitcoin Plus+ Who is that focused at and what kind of People are participating yeah so it's a It's a developer conference it's focused On the Bitcoin ecosystem um every Conference that I run for Bitcoin Plus+ Always has a theme um my joke is like Everyone loves a theme party so we um um I use like the different conferences as An opportunity and also it's a way to Highlight I think how big the Bitcoin Developer ecosystem is because every Time we run a conference it's an Opportunity to shine a light on a Different like part of the industry that People are working on and really to Bring together experts in that like area In some cases experts that maybe haven't Gotten together and talked face Toof Face in like a long time which is like Really cool and fun and I think is Actually like part of like kind of the Renaissance of like dub work and stuff That I think you kind of started or Feeling at Le like feel there's more Dubs coming into Bitcoin than ever um Providing them places where they can Come and find out about different topics So we did a layer 2 one um in Austin This spring back in April it was great We had a bunch of people talking about Rollups we had Paul St talking about Drive chains um we had the first world

Premiere ever what is now known as Ark Um I don't think that Barack had landed On the ark name but it was the first Conference he ever presented that Protocol at so we had novel new layer 2 Protocols at we had lots of talks on Lightning and splicing and how to build Lightning plugins on core lightning um So yeah so that was just like the layer Two one we're going to do one on Payments so Bitcoin payments is our Upcoming one in we're going to be in Buenos series we're going to be the First Bitcoin conference I think in Argentina after the election yeah so We're looking to get like about there's Only about 200 tickets so if you're Planning on coming get a ticket sooner Rather than later because I think we're Going to sell out um and that was going To be focused on bitcoin and payments And like making payments with Bitcoin Like what does that mean what does that Look like hoping to get like the moon Team is Argentina local so I'm hoping They'll be there um yeah so hopefully It'll just be a really good look at like What is it like to make payments on Bitcoin what are some challenges what Are people working on and then the um Austin one we're going to have another One in Austin in May early May that One's going to be about new Scripts so Bitcoin script so all these new OP codes

People are talking about what should we Do we're going to get hopefully everyone In the same room um and a lot of people That are like trying to build with all These new OP codes and ways of doing Bitcoin script um and get them to talk To each other for the first time and Figure out who's working on what and you Know what what efforts are going to be Duplicated what isn't um Robin lonus is Going to be there super testet um I'm Really excited about it yeah what Another thing that's really excited just Kind of broadly is that how much of this Payment stuff seems to be happening in Emerging markets and not not in the Global North I think that's just such a Fascinating development um you know to See El Salvador take off and you can use Lightning just like you know I didn't Get outside of San Salvador to be honest I didn't get very far from the Hilton But but it did seem that there was a lot Of places where I could use it which was Cool I mean and I think that's that's Part of the story I think is to help Those kind of people that really need it I've always been really fascinated how The interest in use in Emerging Markets Difference from differs from places like Europe and Canada and the US yeah Totally and so I'm hoping we'll be able To see some of that in Argentina yeah no That's really cool um what about base 58

Can you talk a bit about that as well Sure yeah that's my other you know my my Millionth project um that is about um You know so like I got into Bitcoin Development I read mastering Bitcoin I Took Jimmy songs programming Bitcoin Class these were both like amazing and Great resources but then I started Working on this like dual funding like The V2 open for channels on on lightning And realized I had no idea how Bitcoin Transactions worked um I didn't know how Bitcoin scripts works I didn't know what I was doing um there wasn't a lot of Information about segwit or any of this And so I kind of went through this Journey of like implementing a lot of Stuff myself like from scratch just so I Had like a good understanding of how These things worked um so base 58 is my Attempt to take like all of that hard Work I did and learning all the new Stuff and really like build a like Um I'm like I'm calling like an Engineering school and a Bitcoin Standard um so you can come in and you Can learn about what are protocols how Do they work what are the like design Decisions that were made in these Protocols it's a Hands-On class where You're actually implementing um you're Implementing code that will like do Stuff at the protocol level by your hand So you know it's we were talking earlier

About like it's a show don't tell class It's a class where you show up and you Get to put your hands on like what is a Big Bitcoin transaction so that's our Bitcoin developer Basics class where we Learn all about Transactions um and how you know some Basic crypto Works um this year I it's Been a busy year this year we launched a Um tap rot and a lightning class so you Know so it's an opportunity to come and Get your hands dirty on like writing Code that like for for lightning like um Write a routing algorithm learn how to Person invoice learn how to write like a Plugin to do htlc interception s um in Tap rot class you write our first like Tap script tree thing and then we learn How to spend it um we write the python We write all the pieces of python that You need to like make a Shore signature And verify it we do it all in class with Python by hand from scratch we read the Specs we Implement them um it's a very Like I want to learn what it's like to Be like a an implementation Dev or I Want to learn how these things work at Just the basic nuts and bolts um you can Come get like a guided tour basically With an expert who's does for you like Live you know and then you have to do it Also so is this an online course that People sign up for or is it is it Something that happens in person or how

Does that work yeah so this year we've Been basically doing mostly in person Here in Austin um next year I'm working On getting my class schedule out for Next next year um hopefully we'll have a Nice mix of self-paced online classes Online classes that are live instruction Plus like inperson opportunities so um Hoping to be across like the entire Spectrum of PE way ways people learn I'm Also working on a textbook for Bitcoin Transactions which maybe someday will be Done um maybe someday I'll get done with It so then you'll even have like a book You could read but um we're not you know One thing at a time maybe for Christmas Break I'll get that done one thing at a Time it doesn't sound like you have one Thing at a time it sounds like you've Got like quite a bit going on yeah There's a lot it's it's like it's gotten A little ridiculous but yeah so in a Previous podcast we talked to the guys At bolts and they had uh implemented um Lightning and then also also uh liquid Right we got both of the layer twos and We talked Rusty about that on green Wallet recently what are your thoughts Around that how those two major layer Twos interact and what kind of Interesting new use cases that could That could Foster and develop yeah so I'm actually a little disappointed that There hasn't been more work on making

Like gateways between lightning and Liquid um I know that like bolts has Been on the Forefront of this and They've done an incredible job but um I Feel like there's sort of been a missed Opportunity here in terms of um you know Lightning lightning works really well And is really really coste effective Whenever you have like um whenever You're able to connect economic entities That have a lot of exchange going back And forth between them right um so maybe This is like a two exchanges maybe this Is a big vendor and a um I don't know a Community that like has a bunch of People that are like transacting on a Lightning note or whatever if you kind Of think about it as like liquid is like A great place to be able to um um put Your money into interesting contracts Invest in Securities that have been Issued on the platform hold your balance And tether maybe accumulate or stack in A low in a lower fee environment you Know it's a side chain it's not main Chain um so you can like it's easier to Stock Bitcoin on the liquid environment Um and then you could use lightning as Like this interoperability layer that Lets you use your liquid Bitcoin if you Accumulated or um you know move it Around between different services really Fast and really cheaply um so I think That kind of swap service I mean it's

Also really handy for people that want To like um swap balances I think like There was the peer swap project to like Make it such that you could swap between An onchain lightning an onchain liquid Balance and moving funds in a lightning Channel so just kind of a way that you Can like stack Bitcoin in a cheap way so You don't have to pay the on Sheen fees Um I think that that's like a really Powerful thing I think we've seen fety Kind of do this also so like they know That like you know when you have an E-cash Federation like a Fedt every website that you go to isn't Going to implement the ability to accept Any random federation's ecash right um Liquid maybe maybe websites will be able To accept liquid because that's a little Bit of a bigger network but in general It's probably more likely that they'll Implement being able to accept the Lightning payment right um so it's Really cool that you could like hold Your balance maybe in usdt or on in a Liquid wallet and then be able to pay Lightning invoices using a liquid Balance um so that kind of swap Possibility I feel like kind of helps Unify all these different um kind of Like places that you can hold and store And exchange Bitcoin um while having This sort of like lightning Universal Interface that you can use to make

Payments to other people uh lightning And liquid are the major layer Twos for Bitcoin but as I understand it there's More layer twos that are currently uh Under El elment and you mentioned at the Beginning of the conversation Arc can You talk a little bit about that yeah so Arc is an effort um by Barack and some I Think he's got a bigger team working With him now but um he was the one who Came up with this protocol his um my Understanding is that you know lightning Does have this limitation and that Anytime you take lightning liquidity Like any Bitcoin and you put it in a Lightning Channel it basically between Becomes a contract between two different Parties right so if you want to have Like a network of different people you Need a lot of two to2 kind of pools of Liquidity that get locked up and then Are reserved just for those two parties Use um so this becomes inefficient at Scale in certain aspects um so Arc is is A proposal of okay how do we take some Of the best of what lightning offers in Terms of being able to um exit that Layer to and go back to layer one Without having to ask permission um how Do we do that in a way where we also get Kind of economies of scale because all Of us are sort of living so to speak in The same pool of collected Bitcoin on The main chain right um so how do you

Lock up more liquidity into a single Like onchain Bitcoin contracts on like One utxo or like just like so to speak And then have a protocol that lets lots And lots and lots of people hold Basically um claims to that Bitcoin in a way that they could still Go to chain with their claim and not Have to ask permission from anyone else Who's in that Collective pool with them So to speak um so that's like the that's The that's the goal it makes it such That there's the ability for me to take A Arc basically like asset like an arc Um they call them VTX basically but it's Like a claim to bitcoin that's like Locked into an arc contract um how do I Take that claim for that Arc Value um oh It's really easy for me to take that Claim and reassign it to someone else Like um maybe my butcher or someone Who's selling me stickers like a sticker Printer or something you know like I Need to buy something I can easily um Send them an arc asset without them Having to set up a channel like they Have to do enlightening find inbound Liquidity such that I can send them a Payment Etc so I think that's like the General project of what they're Attempting to accomplish with arc Arc Initially will be done as a proof of Concept on top of liquid is that correct Yeah that's my understanding yeah that's

What Barack said in a tweet a few days Ago I think yeah okay well this so this Is very Cutting Edge stuff yeah it's new And so the reason that they're building So they're building their initial Prototype on Arc the reason that they're Doing I mean they're building the first Initial prototype of arc on liquid and The reason that they're doing that is Because liquid has some op codes that The main chain of Bitcoin does not have So when you think about op codes my Favorite way to compare them to is like I think most people have maybe used Excel and have used like Excel functions Like some or um you know you can add to Some two things together those are kind Of like so Cel functions um imagine like An Excel worksheet that didn't have like A sum function um you would have to like Add up all the cells together that would Be a lot of work right um Excel Functions are kind of exactly like what An OP code is for Bitcoin and for liquid So when liquid got shipped it came out It has more op codes more like Excel Cell functions if you will than main Chain Bitcoin does because it has all These additional op codes the prototype For liquid can be built in a way that Lets them kind of build like the best Version that they imagin could exist um They're using some of these op codes do Something called covenants which I have

A hard time talking about um but Basically it'll let them um prototype a Version of Arc which is Fast um easy And like um they say like non- Interactive so like basically with Like it'll let so like by using liquid And using some of those OP codes they're Basically new functions that's available There they'll be able to build a version Of Arc it's exactly how they like Pictured it or is it like they wanted it To be right and then after they have the Like the best version of Arc that you Could possibly have working they'll be Able to like ship that get people Interacting with that figure out where Um where there's problems where there's Like um things that they need to prove Out Etc so um yeah so that's my Understanding of why they're building it On liid just pretty cool that is a Really good explanation your uh your Excel analogy I think is very very good That's I like that that I feel like I Understand this is a rare moment for me That's Great right well like it's like yeah but It's like you can't if you have to like If you have to like use the plus sign Instead of just being able to say some Right you're not going to be able to Build the best and most efficient Project on that version of excels so

They're using the new souped up version Of excel which is liquid contracts Because they have they have stuff that They need over there that's great I got It I got it all right So so talking about lightning Network Adoption um we we're speaking with Ry About this one as well so it's I mean We've had a lot of price volatility with Bitcoin over the last you know two years But the adoption in terms of the amount Of Bitcoin that's on the lightning Network has just been up and to the Right so adoption looks like it's gone You know it's going really really well What are you looking forward to in in Lightening in terms of scalability and And mainstream adoption what am I Looking forward to in terms of maining AD option so I have to admit my focus Recently so like with all these projects That I've been doing um a lot of them Involve selling things to people I sell Conference tickets I sell Bitcoin Classes I sell classes through base 58 I'm working on another project brother Friend um which hopefully will get Launched by early next year um or we'll Be selling even like smaller things so Like I think a lot about lightning Adoption from the um the vendor Perspective like I want to sell Something I want people to pay me Directly I don't want to send it I don't

Want to send 7% of my money to Shopify I Don't want to have to wait until they Pay me out I want my money right now I Want peer-to-peer electronic cash on the Internet for stuff that I'm selling you Right now if that makes sense like I Want that money coming and I don't want To have to use like I want it coming Directly from your node to my node right Like I want I want that money self- Sovor like I don't want any Intermediaries like I want that money to Me like you know from you to me like um That's the version the vision of like Commerce e-commerce that I think we Should be building towards so I've been Working on like how do I get my core Lightning node what do I need need to Like fill that gap between checking out A website and you sending your money Directly to my node basically um uh so I'm really excited I'm really excited About adoption on the vendor side like I Am excited about businesses being able To run their businesses and having the Tools that they need to run their Businesses in a self- sovereign manner Um and maybe that means they're able to Like I mean imagine a world where you Can set up a website I don't know exactly how handwave let's Say you put your website on some service Whatever but imagine there's like a web App you have like a phone app which

Maybe is running green light but the Keys are on your phone and every time There's a sale on the website selling Like I don't know let's say you're Selling T-shirts or the blockstream Store sold stickers right initially then Let's say you're selling stickers that You've made something that you've made Something that is yours to sell someone Can check out on that website and when They check out that goes directly to Your mobile phone like it goes directly To your green light phone and it Automatically like marks it is paid and There's like this amazing checkout thing And there's no one between that person That wanted to send you the money and That node that's like on your phone and Getting it um and so what does it take What does it what do you need in order To get that experience like I'm yeah I'm Super excited about all the stuff we've Built on Cor lening on the few things That I'm kind of working on right now to Be able to kind of patch that gap for Myself Um all the bookkeeping functionality That we've added to cor lightning that We're going to get hopefully get some Nice dashboards on that'll make running A business tracking your invoices seeing How much you've like you've made across Your node both through like routing fees As well as on chain cost like total cost

Of ownership of a lightning node um just Like a place that you can like see it Etc so like yeah I get really excited About like man you can just like do like Basically EC like cash payments you know Like peer-to-peer Payments digitally and you don't need Credit cards we don't need middlemen we Can like just make it happen um and We're super close to that so I I get Really excited about that all right okay Taking a step back um a little further What what are you most excited about Just generally you're working across so Many different things what are you most Excited about generally just broadly in The world of Bitcoin whether it's Education or lightning or or something Else that we haven't touched on today I'm excited about more people finding Out about how Bitcoin works and that They can use it and that it is something That is like interesting and applicable To their lives as a tool right people Talk about Bitcoin as an investment People talk about Bitcoin as savings Technology um I think but I think those Like and those have definitely found Their audience right but I'm excited About Bitcoin being a part of people's Like workflow so to speak and how they Sell and how they buy and how they Transact with other people and I think That's like kind of in my mind like one

Of the more interesting frontiers of Bitcoin like going forward um and Helping people understand that is like Across like okay how can we build tools Where they can sell things with it um And they can see for themselves the Benefit of not paying fees to other People to process payments right um on The education side that's like how can I Help people touch and experience and Learn how Bitcoin works so that they're Like contributing back to helping make That a tool that they feel like they're Enabled to like build on interact with Etc um so yeah I think that like I think We're on I think we're on the precipice Of more people really understanding how Bitcoin works and I want to make it I Think like in like across bace 58 Software I build Etc um I want to make People more confident in their ability To understand Bitcoin right like I don't I don't think it's all new there's Nothing else in the world like Bitcoin There's like the protocol Doesn't look like anything else I've Ever seen and I've seen most of the Different types of tech that exist you Know it's like completely novel and but I think that means there's a new Opportunity to like help people Understand how it works right and so I I Get really excited about like oh my gosh So many people are now are going to

Learn about how Bitcoin Works in this Decade um and that's exciting because I Think hopefully that'll be an empowering Thing for every person that spends the Time getting to know how the tools work Work how to move it how to use it but Also like how it works at like the base Layer that's great and where should People go if they want to learn more About your um various Endeavors great Question I don't have a single answer to Um if you want to check out our websites It's at BTC P.D um or you can do BTC Plus+ and spell It out. deev um and then for Bas 58 we It Bas 58. school I think let me double Check that I think it's that's ba 58. school I would send you to my um I Would send you to my uh Twitter because I send to tweet a lot of stuff there Yeah it's SP 58 that's cool um but I'm About to log off Twitter for the month So that's not a great place to go so Well I really appreciate the time today Lisa it's a conversation two years in The making but I think it was uh Definitely worth worth the wait so very Happy to finally had you on the show and And thanks a lot for the time today cool Thank You

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